The Cookie Tin Lie That Explains Why Betrayal Hurts So Much [Ep. 024]

You know that blue Dansk cookie tin that turned out to be full of sewing supplies? That moment of betrayal — small, silly, unforgettable — is something almost everyone has felt. But why does it still sting decades later? 

In this episode, Joe and Joyce crack open a Cantonese proverb — 食碗面反碗底 — which translates roughly as "eat from the bowl and then flip it over." In Chinese culture, flipping a bowl is a ritual act reserved for the dead. To do it to someone still living? That's not just rudeness. That's erasure. The English language has its version too — "don't bite the hand that feeds you." But that's a warning. 食碗面反碗底 is a verdict. 

We go deep on our first memories of betrayal, why it cuts so much deeper when it comes from someone close, Joyce's story about her grandfather's brother and a family oyster sauce business, and the uncomfortable question underneath all of it: If betrayal is this universal — is it actually inevitable? 

🎙️ New episodes every Friday | 3pm AST • 12pm GMT • 7am EST 

Timestamps: 

00:00 Introduction 

02:06 Animation: 食碗面反碗底 (eat from the bowl & flip it over) 

04:39 When was the first time you were betrayed? 

16:51 Joyce's grandpa betrayed by his brother 

19:52 If betrayals are so common, why does it still destroy us? 

21:18 What is Optimism Bias and how does it affect how we deal with betrayal? 26:57 Is betrayal inevitable?

🔔 Subscribe for more hidden histories behind everyday idioms, proverbs, and sayings from different cultures.

NEW EPISODES every FRIDAY 3pm (AST). [7 AM EST · 12 PM GMT]

⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️⭐️ Leave a 5 star review if you like this episode — it helps more people find us!

📲 Find us on @unANSWERED100 on all social platforms (YT, IG, TT, LI, & X)

👋🏽 Come say hi & Read the Blog here: www.unANSWERED100.com

#unANSWERED100 #ThinkQuestionConnect #Proverbs #Idioms #Wisdom

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

When I would go to grandma's house, uh, I would look on the shelf and there would be this big blue box.

SPEAKER_01 0:05

I think I know what you're talking about. As a five-year-old, I remember being so disappointed.

SPEAKER_02 0:11

It's decorated with the most delectable cookies. And it never occurs to you why is this box on the shelf?

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Danish blue tin cookies. Please.

SPEAKER_02 0:20

I don't know how you spend your cookies that become synonymous with sewing. And welcome to another episode of Unanswered. A podcast where we love to think, question, and connect. We use idioms, phrases, and famous sayings from different cultures to examine life's biggest questions and to hopefully find some answers. My name is Joe.

SPEAKER_01 0:44

And I'm Joyce. We love to bridge generations, nations, and stations and give you a glimpse into our lives.

SPEAKER_02 0:51

But before we do any of that, what we want you to do is take that finger and hit that subscribe button.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

And follow us on your favorite social media platforms. We are on YouTube, uh, Instagram, TikTok, everywhere. X, LinkedIn.

SPEAKER_02 1:10

And I think that address is Unanswered100 on all of the social media.

SPEAKER_01 1:15

We have a good one for you today.

SPEAKER_02 1:17

Yeah, hopefully we have a good one for you today. I think it's uh one that everyone knows and has experienced.

SPEAKER_01 1:22

But um But not the saying, though. Not the same. Hopefully, you don't experience it. It's a Cantonese thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:29

Here we go. I think I had Chinese music for the background.

SPEAKER_01 1:32

Say one mean fun, won't die.

SPEAKER_02 1:37

Yeah, just give it up. Okay, I'm gonna pass with this.

SPEAKER_01 1:40

So it literally means you eat from the bowl and you flip it over.

SPEAKER_02 1:45

That that's me every day.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

No. You only flip it over in the dishwasher. No. So, but okay, I'm not gonna say too much about this because we've got an animation explaining the origins of the Okay.

SPEAKER_02 2:00

First, let's the animation will explain what it is, what it pertains to, and then we'll come back, we'll talk a bit more about it.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Sigwun mean fan mun die. Eat from the bowl and flip it over. And can't any same. There are some phrases that were never written down first. No playwright coined them, no philosopher published them, no newspaper printed them. They were born at dinner tables, spoken by ordinary people, describing something they kept watching happen around them. To understand why this image is so devastating, you need to understand one thing about Chinese culture. The only time you ever flip a bowl is during ancestral rites when you're offering food to the dead. So to flip someone's bowl while they're still living? That's not just rude. It's a ritual after erasure. It says, you no longer exist to me. And you did it after eating their food, after receiving their kindness, after they poured everything they had into that bowl and placed it in front of you. The English language has a version of this. But that's a warning about consequences. It describes the moment someone receives your generosity and repays it with betrayal by choice. This phrase has no birthday, just centuries of people watching it happen and needing a word for it. Because some kinds of betrayals leave a mark on us.

SPEAKER_02 3:37

Alright, so let's jump into this. Actually, that was a really good video, right?

SPEAKER_01 3:41

Sigwan mean fan one day.

SPEAKER_02 3:43

Sigwan mean fan one day.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Okay, not bad.

SPEAKER_02 3:46

Hey, don't hate the play today.

SPEAKER_01 3:48

You understand?

SPEAKER_02 3:49

It's basically just talking about betrayal, right? And uh a person who has done something for you or has been uh somewhere in your life, you've done something for them rather, and uh then you've been betrayed in some way, shape, or form, or maybe it's some a person you were friends with and you were betrayed. So this whole thing is basically talking about betrayal. And it's I guess our question for today would be what is betrayal, right? And how do we deal with it? If I can say one thing, well, we're gonna get to this question later, but is there a way to avoid being betrayed?

SPEAKER_01 4:26

Okay, yeah, we can talk about that.

SPEAKER_02 4:28

We can talk about that. Have another question before we get through. Um, are betrayals inevitable?

SPEAKER_01 4:34

Yes, yes, yeah, that's a good question to talk about. Yeah, okay, so a question for you first. Yeah. When was the first time in your memory that you experienced betrayal?

SPEAKER_02 4:46

If we want to be honest, I can think of two instances of betrayal.

SPEAKER_00 4:50

Okay, sure.

SPEAKER_02 4:51

One of them is um when I would go to grandma's house, right? And I would go in and uh I would look on the shelf and there would be this big blue box, right? This big little circular block blue box.

SPEAKER_01 5:08

Oh, I think I know what you're talking about. Why is it why is it so painful? It's a tin, it's not a box. Yeah, it's a pencil. It's a blue cookie.

SPEAKER_02 5:20

It's a little is that it's steel, it's aluminum. I don't know what it's made from. It's metal, I know that. And it's a tin, and it has it's decorated with the most delectable cookies. The most delectable cookies of cookies. It's the danks cookies or whatever they are. And you're like, oh man, this is gonna be good. And it never occurs to you, why is this box on the shelf? Why is it in the why is it in this room? But you just see the boxes and you automatically think, oh yes, this is gonna be a good time. And you go and open it, and why in the world is there needles and thread and dimples and yarn? You're like, what is this? What is this nonsense? That is almost like a betrayal.

SPEAKER_01 6:01

In my experience, in all the people I've talked to, it seems like it's like a cross-cultural thing. Because in my household, in my Asian household, there was such a tin.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

It's always a cookie box.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

It's always a cookie tin.

SPEAKER_02 6:20

Like, how many people have ever had this experience where you get the yellow, the little, not yellow, it's blue. Blue. The little blue, like maybe it's another color, but it's a cookie tin, and for some reason they only store sewing stuff inside, like needles, thread, bits, and bobs. You're like, what the world is this?

SPEAKER_01 6:37

I've actually seen reels about this.

SPEAKER_02 6:39

Really?

SPEAKER_01 6:40

On Instagram. Yeah, yeah, yeah. People actually going, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 6:44

It's a universal experience.

SPEAKER_01 6:46

I've seen people comment on this specific thing on Reddit.

SPEAKER_02 6:50

Really?

SPEAKER_01 6:51

Yes, and they're from Nigeria. So this is this is like a universal phenomenon, I think.

SPEAKER_02 6:57

Why? Like why? How did that come about?

SPEAKER_01 7:00

What was your favorite cookie?

SPEAKER_02 7:02

What? Growing up?

SPEAKER_01 7:04

No, in the cookie tin.

SPEAKER_02 7:05

Oh, okay. Let's be clear. All the votes are in. There is no voting on this. Hands down, the best cookie in the tin is the pretzel. The pretzel with the sugar sprinkles on top. No, that's the best cool. I disagree. I disagree. There's no argument against this. How many people out there agree with me that the best cookie in the tin, in the circle of the tin, is the pretzel. The pretzel with the little sugar sprinkles on top. That is the best one. A close. If they had the raisin one in there, the one with the little raisins, that would have a close second.

SPEAKER_01 7:39

And the ones, the ones that were made in the 80s had more raisins. Nowadays they have one.

SPEAKER_02 7:46

That's not a raisin, that's like a peach. It's like a raisin. It's a rain. Then you put the rest of the raisin in there.

SPEAKER_01 7:57

Danish blue tin cookies. Dinks? Dinks. Dinks.

SPEAKER_02 8:01

Dinks. Dinx.

SPEAKER_01 8:03

Please explain. Is that your ultimate purpose?

SPEAKER_02 8:07

How did your cookies come become synonymous with sewing? And there's the question.

SPEAKER_01 8:15

It's funny now, but as a five-year-old, I remember being so disappointed. And you're right. It feels like a betrayal because this is supposed to be cookies. Yeah, because you were expecting something else. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 8:29

Uh yeah. So it became about expectations and unmet expectations. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Actually, it doesn't seem like that's like such a big betrayal. I know that's uh a funny example, but I think that as kids, it's real to us then, you know. I'm not trying to be like, oh, this ruined my life. No, no, no. It's nothing like that. So I said I have another example. Yeah. Right. And uh let's see. So I think it was Jimmy Kimmel. I'm not sure, but I know it's one of those late night show comedians. He would always ask the parents uh after Halloween, after kids had gone out and done all their trick-or-treating to take their candy and hide it, and then act like they had eaten it all the next morning and video the kids' reaction. It's so horrible. You talk about betrayal, and you can see the look of betrayal on these kids' faces. And some of them are livid.

SPEAKER_01 9:23

I mean, the kids are livid. Some of them are so precious. They're like, it's okay. It's okay.

SPEAKER_02 9:36

Like they're crying. It's okay. I'm like, it's so harsh because it's so bad. But those situations, like it's for us as adults, we're like, oh well, it's just candy. Now they didn't really eat the candy, but those kids, it was so real, you know? And it was like this.

SPEAKER_01 9:53

No, that's a betrayal, you know. It is the betrayal in the deepest sense. Like for a 10-year-old, what can be more valuable than candy?

SPEAKER_02 10:04

Like, what would you oh my gosh. What do you think you would have done in that situation?

SPEAKER_01 10:09

Oh my gosh. Oh, you're asking me. Yeah, I'm asking you. Who is that? Like as a kid? Yes. Oh, I would have cried so hard. Oh man. Because these are your parents who are supposed to nurture you and support you. Yeah. They they've broken your trust. And that is precisely why I would never do this. And people might say, Oh, you're just such a killjoy. I'm not a killjoy. I just refuse to betray my kid like this.

SPEAKER_02 10:37

I'm practicing betrayal with my child.

SPEAKER_01 10:39

Yes. I don't want to prime them to not trust me. You know what I'm saying?

SPEAKER_02 10:43

Like, but some might argue that, well, we're preparing them for the real world because you're going to have to face that in a real world.

SPEAKER_01 10:49

Uh no.

SPEAKER_02 10:51

I don't know if I would have prepared for the world.

SPEAKER_01 10:52

The real world is going to prepare them for the real world.

SPEAKER_02 10:55

It's like you're going to be hurt in real life, so let me hurt you.

SPEAKER_01 11:00

No, that logic doesn't work for me.

SPEAKER_02 11:04

No. But yeah, I I here's the question. Why do betrayals hurt so much? Why is it so deeply felt? Why why did it hurt so much?

SPEAKER_01 11:13

Because it's I think betrayals happen when there's a gap between expectation and reality, right?

SPEAKER_02 11:22

Right. Yeah, for sure. And it happens when there's a gap between expectation and reality. It also happens when, as we said before, there's a betrayal of trust. Yeah, there's a bad intention there.

SPEAKER_01 11:36

Because like people won't consider it betrayal if you look at the sky at night and it looks so sunny and you were expecting a really sunny day tomorrow, and you wake up to a rainstorm, right? Like that's a gap, but there's no feelings of betrayal because there's no bad intent.

SPEAKER_03 11:55

Right.

SPEAKER_01 11:55

Right? Like we all know that nature is nature, it does whatever it wants. And no one is maliciously raining down on your party. But I think for me at least, betrayals hurt so much because of that um ill intent.

SPEAKER_02 12:12

Is ill intent like on the person or whatever that comes, but I think also um that level of expectation is part of it. The example you just gave, our expectations are set at a certain level. And even though those expectations are not certainly met if the weather changes, we still understand that the weather had can do whatever it wants to. So we don't get upset, we're just like, ah man, another jury day. Let me get up and go to work. You know, so the expectations are managed, right? Yes, yes. So if our expectations aren't managed in certain situations, we can certainly experience betrayal in that situation as well.

SPEAKER_01 12:48

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

Does that make sense? Sometimes, let me put it this way: if you have a close friend that does something to you, and you have someone who you don't care, don't you would have two totally different reactions sometimes, right? Because this person's close to you, you're like, dude, you know me. Why would you do this? But if it's somebody else, you'll be like, I don't care about this guy. So your expectations are different.

SPEAKER_01 13:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 13:11

Does that make sense? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 13:12

And I think it also violates the standard of goodness in our hearts. Do you think?

SPEAKER_02 13:18

Let's dive into that.

SPEAKER_01 13:20

Okay, because I think that's why it hurts so much, right? Like we you mentioned a friend, right? Yeah. It hurts so much when someone close betrays you because you expect there to be goodness, to be respect, to be honor between friends. At least I do. Right, right, right, right. And I I think this is a pretty universal free feeling because like the it hurts the same way.

SPEAKER_02 13:49

Yeah, it hurts the same way. Whether you're young, whether you're old, no matter what. Whatever occupation is occupation, whether nationality, ethnic background.

SPEAKER_01 13:58

Because I think it violates something sacred within us.

SPEAKER_02 14:02

Yeah. And it can actually, once you arbitrate, it can change your behavior quite easily. What do you mean? Well, for instance, I'll give you an example of you start to lose trust very quickly. You start to you start to defend those areas. You know the way that I never get excited about trips.

SPEAKER_00 14:24

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 14:25

I never get excited about trips until I'm actually en route.

SPEAKER_00 14:29

Yes.

SPEAKER_02 14:29

Do you know where that comes from?

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Tell me.

SPEAKER_02 14:32

Okay. So when I was younger, um, my father, like, I mean, we didn't really hardly go anywhere. Uh and we were, you know, you know my history, we were not a lot of money or anything like that. And so he was like talking about going to Chicago. And so Chicago's like an hour and a half away from us. And man, I would get so excited because we had an uncle that lived up there. And I remember going up there once, and it was so fun. And so he would tell me, Hey, we're going, get me prepared. Like, we're going up to Chicago this weekend. We're going up to Chicago this week. I'm like, oh yeah, I'm getting excited. And uh the whole week I would be like just like I can't wait. And then he wouldn't even give me a time. We're going at this time, so and so, okay, we okay. I would be ready, have my little backpack already, packed and stuff. And it six o'clock comes, we haven't left, eight o'clock comes up, and we're going, no, no, no, we're going tomorrow. Okay. All right, okay. Then tomorrow, hey, are we going? And it just kept going like that until it just like we and we never went. And I was just like, man, come on. Now, if that happened just once, yeah, that would have been okay. But it happened like a number of times. And I was just like, it got me to the point where I'm like, pssst because the first couple times I felt betrayed. I'm like, I've been waiting. I didn't, I I turned down other things, right? So that I can go, yeah. And it just was like, man, come on. And now it just got me to the point where I was like, well, I'll believe it when we actually are in the car.

SPEAKER_00 16:02

Or on the fly.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

On the highway. No, I had we didn't fly anywhere, but I was like, I'll but you're still this way.

SPEAKER_01 16:09

But I'm still this way to this day.

SPEAKER_02 16:10

Like you don't get excited on the flight. But I'm like, oh, we're on the trip. You're like, why are you excited now? We've been planning this for weeks, for months. And I'm still that way. You're right. I'm still that way. But that's why. Right? And so it can actually change the behavior or it can affect the behavior, right?

SPEAKER_01 16:27

Wow, that's too bad. See, yeah, like that's sometimes we just don't realize uh the power we have on other people.

SPEAKER_02 16:36

And you know, some people might, oh come on. Yeah. I I'm not saying it's a major problem or anything like that. I'm just saying it's real.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

And it's real, it's it's real, and it can affect us.

SPEAKER_02 16:46

Yeah, for the person that is happening to you, it's real, right? So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 16:51

Um, oh I remember this. Actually, I was three. We were in Hong Kong and we lived with my paternal grandparents, and one day his my grandpa's brother came by to visit. I picked up the chicken feather duster, you know, in Hong Kong. So, something you guys need to know in in many Asian cultures, the feather duster is not for dusting, it's for spanking. It's the equivalent of a switch.

SPEAKER_02 17:25

I don't know if everybody out there knows what a switch is, but I know if there's anybody who's African American out there, you know what a switch is.

SPEAKER_01 17:32

Yeah, so it's that thing is for spanking. So I just picked up that thing and I was like, like I was I wanted to spank the brother. And even at three, I knew he was bad news. Wow. So turns out he was bad news, and he um he and my grandfather actually started a oyster sauce business together in Hong Kong. It was actually yeah, Hong Kong and Macao's very, very famous in the 80s. And he was a sales guy, and my grandpa was the actual, you know, he actually made the sauce. He was the uh the soul behind behind the whole business. Yes. And he secretly in the back end, I think, um changed over all the assets in his name.

SPEAKER_02 18:22

Wow.

SPEAKER_01 18:23

So that my grandpa actually owned nothing.

SPEAKER_02 18:26

That wow.

SPEAKER_01 18:28

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 18:29

See, I didn't know all the details behind it, but I know you guys actually did before this.

SPEAKER_01 18:33

I actually went and when we were researching for this episode, I actually went to talk to my mom again and tried to get the story straight. And um, I was researching his oyster sauce company, and people are still talking about it today. Really? Yes, they need to start making it up. Let's let's start. No, there's nothing, there's nothing left. Like it's I can't even find the recipe still.

SPEAKER_02 18:59

Joyce, we come on, let's let's make a move.

SPEAKER_01 19:03

Do you know how hard it is to make oyster sauce? I can find out. So, but anyways, it's just I remember that season of life. Uh, it was chaotic, it was you know, it it got to a point where my grandpa has to take this to the courts to get his stuff back, yeah. And this is him taking his own brother to court, yes, because otherwise he has nothing to to pass on to my dad.

SPEAKER_02 19:33

Yeah, so it was utter betrayal.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Yeah, it was all out betrayal.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

Yeah, uh, yeah. And your grandfather's the one that kind of brought him in, so that's definitely flipping the rice bowl over, it's definitely biting the hand that feeds you, the whole works, all of it. Yeah, so man.

SPEAKER_01 19:52

If betrayals are so common, why does it still destroy us?

SPEAKER_02 19:58

Because once again, there's a level of expectation that people are gonna be a true their true to their word. Yes, right? Yeah, um, we have I think a compensity, a desire uh for truth, right? And that's even to interact with truth from other people when your word is your word, and uh when I say something to you or something that that's going to happen. I I believe that each one of us uh have that desire for that. At least that's my thought. Well, I mean, what do you think?

SPEAKER_01 20:29

I don't know. I think for such a common experience, our our collective reaction towards it is uh is surprisingly uh visceral, surprisingly um physical.

SPEAKER_02 20:46

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:46

Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_02 20:47

Yeah, there's a visceral reaction, there's a almost like gut level.

SPEAKER_01 20:51

Yeah, because if and we don't teach this at school or even like you know, at home, we don't teach our kids, okay, you know, one day you're gonna one day you're gonna experience this.

SPEAKER_02 21:04

Well, I guess those those Jimmy Kimbo parents they're teaching it.

SPEAKER_01 21:10

I don't know, that's the best way to teach it very well.

SPEAKER_02 21:14

One day this is what it's gonna feel like.

SPEAKER_01 21:17

I think it's also have you heard of um optimism bias?

SPEAKER_02 21:23

Optimism bias. Yes, go ahead, explain it to me.

SPEAKER_01 21:27

Like we are prone as humans, we are prone to see to be optimistic, right? We we want to see the good in people, and I think um I think that contributes to it.

SPEAKER_02 21:42

Okay, that's for the most part, not all people, but for the most important thing. No, no, no, for the most part, I think. I like as as I said before, we have this desire for truth. We have the desire for goodness, right? Yeah, yeah. For things to be good, yes, right? Yes, and there's nobody's like, no, I want everything to be bad. No one says that.

SPEAKER_01 22:00

That's us.

SPEAKER_02 22:01

Someone you're so we all have this desire to see goodness, to experience goodness, and that level of goodness is determined, I guess, by different things. But we all have this innate desire for good.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

So when that doesn't happen, or when then it it elicits that uh negative response.

SPEAKER_01 22:20

And I'm even thinking, you know, we we've been sharing personal stories. Um, and I'm I'm thinking of betrayal, kind of like pushing the boundaries a little bit and thinking, what are other kinds of betrayals that people feel? And it brings me to um if we look at a bigger picture of the world, right? Like it's it's really interesting how we respond to certain types of betrayals. Um so I am uh I've immigrated twice in my life lifetime, right? Right. And um the first time was from Hong Kong to Canada, and now as a kid, I didn't feel any of this, but I could just imagine my parents, how my parents felt, right? Like um, not just my parents, but immigrants around the world. The the only reason you would immigrate, meaning move from your home country to a completely new country, right, is because you're not satisfied with the status status quo, or if you feel betrayed by your home country, right? Um certain promises weren't kept, you don't see a feature there, right? Like it is to a certain extent a sense of betrayal. But to have the hope that things are gonna get better in a new country that you know nothing about.

SPEAKER_02 23:56

Right, right, right, right, right.

SPEAKER_01 23:57

That's that's a special kind of hope.

SPEAKER_02 24:00

So let me ask you this. Uh, and maybe you've experienced this. So cu because what I think I hear you saying is that there's these people who have this experience of immigrating to a new place, immigrating to a new country. They get there hoping like this is the dream, this is what we fought for, and they get there, and they almost feel betrayed if it's not what they've what they have imagined.

SPEAKER_01 24:22

Yes, but uh yes, yes, yes. It's not what they imagined, but even the act of immigrating is a little bit um of the optimism bias. Like because you you you're experienced you're experiencing this in your home country right now, right?

SPEAKER_02 24:41

And it's gonna be better. The grass is great. It's gonna be better.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

Yes, the grass is gonna be greener on the other side, right? Like it's not hope. And I find this really fascinating because if betrayals are so common, why do we still have that hope?

SPEAKER_02 24:55

Well, I think why do we keep on hoping? I think it's our nature, it's our nature to hope. Like it's a it's our nature to hope for the best, it's our nature to to strive for the best, whatever that best is, it's our nature to look for that. Now, if your nature is to strive for the least and to hope for the worst, then there are mental, I think there are there are mental that there's names, there's names for that, you know. So we can do that, but that's a whole nother episode, you know.

SPEAKER_01 25:26

So I just find that fascinating, you know, that we keep hoping, like as a as humans, we we do that to whatever extent, like some more than others, right?

SPEAKER_02 25:38

Yes, this is a very even existential question. Like, why do we hope?

SPEAKER_01 25:43

Why do we hope?

SPEAKER_02 25:44

Why do we hope? And what does that mean? Hope and why do we always look and search for the greatest.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

And why does and where does it where does that come from? Where does that come from? Where is it where it's where is its foundation? Like where you know, where does it come from?

SPEAKER_02 26:02

You're getting into some heavy, heavy stuff there.

SPEAKER_01 26:04

But I think that we don't have a topic to discuss. But I I think it's a good question to ponder. Because I think we all have experienced one kind of betrayal, um you know, or another. So I think, you know, it's it's good to think about. Why do we still hope? Like if one friend betrays you, what prevents the next friend from betraying you? We don't think like that. We we just kept on hoping. We're like, okay, yeah, that that's you know, yes, I I would probably have developed some protective mechanism, right? But I'm not gonna stop making friends. I still continue.

SPEAKER_02 26:43

And that was my question because what you're saying is spot on. We this is part of the issue. We are creatures who always hope. We always hope for the best, we always run for the best, we always look for the best, we always desire what's the good, right? So the question then becomes then is betrayal inevitable.

SPEAKER_01 27:04

Is betrayal inevitable? I don't know if we already asked that, but meaning you cannot avoid it.

SPEAKER_02 27:10

You cannot avoid it.

SPEAKER_01 27:12

Oh, well, that's rough. Uh I would say so. Like if the cookie, if if the blue Danish cookie tin is a betrayal, then we have no hope.

SPEAKER_02 27:23

Okay, so but let me say this really quick. I think there's a difference between disappointment and betrayal.

SPEAKER_01 27:30

Okay. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 27:31

Yes. So the Danish cookie thing is absolutely disappointment. It's a disappointment. It's probably more betrayal. I felt it as betrayal.

SPEAKER_01 27:40

But it's more the Because it was the grandmother's cookie tin.

SPEAKER_02 27:44

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01 27:45

It was my mom's cookie tin. I expect to find goodies. Okay, let's get back to this.

SPEAKER_02 27:52

But let's get back. Yeah. So, but yeah, so I it's it's inevitable. You know, I I actually think that it's inevitable. So we just have to prepare ourselves for it. But once again, because we're creatures who seek the best and hope for the best, we're not just creatures of gloom and doom and then look around like, man, I'm gonna be betrayed. Oh man, I'm gonna no. And we have to realize that there's a difference between disappointment and betrayal.

SPEAKER_00 28:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 28:18

Disappointment is there's lots and lots of disappointments, and I think uh the level of our expectations many times can determine whether it is a disappointment or it is a betrayal.

SPEAKER_01 28:31

Our level of expectation determines whether or not it's a disappointment or a betrayal. Right. Okay, our expectations. Do you think that expectation has to do with um the relationship you have with the person who's definitely have definitely be part of that?

SPEAKER_02 28:52

I I gave the example earlier and I say it again now. If some dude I'm walking down the street and I hold the door open for someone and they don't say thank you, it doesn't even bother me. Why? Because I don't know this person, right? And I know that's a little thing.

SPEAKER_01 29:08

Inconsequential.

SPEAKER_02 29:09

Even if I go to I'm on the street and somebody asks me for some food or something, and I give them food and they cuss at me, I'm just like, this guy, whatever. You know, yeah. Why? Because my expectations are so low for this interaction and for this individual, yeah, that I don't I don't hold them. It's like I expect people to be honestly, this is gonna sound bad. I expect people to act in a negative sense for the most part. Just to not be loyal. Yeah, to not be loyal, to not be uh respectful, respectful. You expect that, right? So when it happens, you're not surprised. You're like, well, okay, yeah. But for other people, especially people who are your friends, yeah, especially those who are even closer, who are your day ones, yeah, those you're like, when they do something, you're like, come on, bro. Like it's it's different because there's like almost like a scale, like a bar graph, because they can get away with more, but when it's something that's really important, man, it it hurts, you know, and it's like, no, this is betrayal, this is it, right? But they're those who you know better, you can you'll let them off with a lot more. Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00 30:20

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:21

Where we had friends who were very close and were just absolute opportunists. Yeah, there's no question, they're just opportunists, and so when the rubber hit the road, they went for opportunity more than loyalty, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 30:35

Opportunity for self-advancement, for more money, more fame, more power, more opportunities. Yes.

SPEAKER_02 30:41

And these were these are people who acted like they were day ones, acted or tried to convince us they were day ones, and all it's like, man, that's that that's when you're like, this is absolute betrayal.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 30:53

And it's like, what do you do with that? And you know what I do with that? We're done. Oh man. Thank you so much. Thank you guys for joining us. Um, I don't know if we answered the question, but we'd love to hear your thoughts on first of all, have you ever been betrayed? Do you feel like a betrayal is inevitable? Um, uh, and uh how do you how can we avoid it? How can we avoid being betrayed? Like, how do we manage the expectations?

SPEAKER_01 31:17

And also, how do you prepare the next generation to deal better with betrayal?

SPEAKER_02 31:24

Yeah, yes. To deal with the situation where they will experience betrayal. Is there a way? Yeah, and so yeah, we'd love to hear it. Um, also, before you leave, if you can just go ahead, just rub your hands together really, real quick, like this, warm them up, put a one-pointed finger, and hit that subscribe button.

SPEAKER_01 31:42

And follow us on your favorite social media platforms. We are on Instagram, YouTube, TikTok, LinkedIn, X, and Facebook. So, under unanswered 100, come say hi.

SPEAKER_02 31:54

Unanswered 100, please. Come say hello. Thank you guys for joining us. We love to uh be able to hear from you, so make sure you write in. And uh hopefully we'll see you on our next episode. So thank you once again for joining us. We'll see you next time.

SPEAKER_01 32:09

Bye.

SPEAKER_02 32:09

Bye.